HJ Leader Dagger opinions

[Loggie2]

This one is being offered to me. One opinion is it has been releathered.

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[crack]

These are the Gebietsführer+ daggers. So very, very rare and only a small clique seems to "know" which are the real ones. As usual it's all based on "comparison with a known original ("which just so happens to be in my admired collection")" so good luck and I hope that you find some seasoned collector who knows where the fakes were made/which dealer had them made and will steer you towards or away from that particular exanple. As you can tell, I can't help but I've seen enough stories in this hobby to keep Jack occupied for much longer than even he can handle...

 

[mkholst]

Very difficult with these H. J. leaders daggers. Better and close-up pics needed, but it is an item which is very difficult to judge by pics.

The pic of the markers mark is not quite sharp, but I see it as RZM M7/36, which is Hörster. Only Hörster and Eickhorn made these daggers. There are a lot of small differences between them, so you can not compare a Hörster with a Eickhorn. My H. J. leaders dagger is a Eickhorn, so pics of mine would not help you.

Weitze have 3 Hörsters for sale, try to compare with them. It could give you a hint, but it would not be a 100% guarantee.

Sorry not be of more help, but it is one of the items you have to have in your hands to make a judgement.

Good luck

Michael

 

[Juliux]

But weren't these daggers golden except for the blade?

 

[mkholst]

Hi Juliux

No, most are in "silver" - the "gold" version is only for "High Leaders"

Michael

 

[Juliux]

Yes thanks, I thought there was only one model

 

[bertl59]

I would say like Michael, without very good photos it is difficult but the best thing is to have the piece in hand and to compare with other examples.
However, this dagger gives me a good impression, apart from perhaps the leather of the scabbard which seems too grainy to me, perhaps it has been replaced??
Horster remains the most "common" model

 

[Juliux]

Then they will be like these shoulder straps. Führer Band and Gebiet Führer. Golden, Silver

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[den70]

This one is being offered to me. One opinion is it has been releathered.

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Sorry, it is bad dagger. leave it where it is

 

[mkholst]

Hi den70

"bad dagger" is not good enough for me - try to explain why you think so - you must have seen something on the pics you don't like, but what ??

Michael

 

[den70]

Hi den70

"bad dagger" is not good enough for me - try to explain why you think so - you must have seen something on the pics you don't like, but what ??

Michael

Everything about it is wrong. Etched mark, eagle and diamond pommel. Also the leather is not original. This is a weak copy, there are more sophisticated ones that are much better made, but still have slight differences in detail.

 

[den70]

Hi Juliux

No, most are in "silver" - the "gold" version is only for "High Leaders"

Michael

Michael, can you tell me where it says about golden daggers? Or is this information from the books of Johnson and other dealers? I really respect Tom as a person who has done a lot for our hobby, but here he was cunning. There is not a single mention in documents of gold-plated daggers.

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[Garry]

There is not a single mention in documents of gold-plated daggers.

I just checked the RJF regulations again and from Nov 1936 when the dagger was introduced there was never any mention that it came in two levels (gold and silver). It is simply known as the "HJ-Führerdolch" and is described as black leather sheath covering with silver-coloured metal parts. In this scan you can see the colours even clearer than on den70's:

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However with this being an item that was awarded directly by von Schirach coupled with the fact that from 1937 Gebietsführer and higher had golden insignia (buttons, visor cord, belt hooks, gold buckle on the brocade) I suppose it's possible that Gebietsführer+ received a gold version but I have no proof that would either confirm or deny that. I'll keep looking... That is not to say that the dagger further up the page is good because it clearly isn't.

 

[mkholst]

I will agree with Garry - when all other uniform equipment is in "gold" at Gebietsführer and higher ranks, why not the dagger ?

A "gold" dagger is mentioned in many reference books, e.g. James P. Atwood, John Angolia, Thomas Johnsson, etc. - yes, these are not original sources, but who says they are all wrong?

In my more than 50 years as a collector, I have never had a "gold" dagger in my hand, my Eickhorn edition is in "silver", but there is occasionally a "gold" dagger for sale.

By the way, I think I have seen a color photo of von Rippentrop with a "gold" dagger, but I can't remember where and when - maybe someone else can find that photo??

We are all allowed to believe what we want, but my personal opinion is that there was a "gold" dagger for higher leaders.

BUT let's see if Garry can't find anything in the original sources.

Michael

 

[den70]

I will agree with Garry - when all other uniform equipment is in "gold" at Gebietsführer and higher ranks, why not the dagger ?

A "gold" dagger is mentioned in many reference books, e.g. James P. Atwood, John Angolia, Thomas Johnsson, etc. - yes, these are not original sources, but who says they are all wrong?

In my more than 50 years as a collector, I have never had a "gold" dagger in my hand, my Eickhorn edition is in "silver", but there is occasionally a "gold" dagger for sale.

By the way, I think I have seen a color photo of von Rippentrop with a "gold" dagger, but I can't remember where and when - maybe someone else can find that photo??

We are all allowed to believe what we want, but my personal opinion is that there was a "gold" dagger for higher leaders.

BUT let's see if Garry can't find anything in the original sources.

Michael

Michael, you mention dealers. in their books there are DJ knives, the first model of the Banschutz dagger, marine HJ and much more. I would not like to go deeper into which of them published this due to lack of information and who did it maliciously. We have examples when, thanks to photographs or publications in newspapers, we find confirmation of some atypical daggers. But this is not the case with gold HJ.

Here is an example of a fake gold-plated HJ. Fortunately for us collectors, the scammers took a copy of the dagger. It would have been much more difficult if the original dagger had been used as a basis. Agree to gild and sell the item for much more - this is a great temptation.

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